Addition below: Boras meeting.
Following up his comments to WBZ's Dan Roche, Peter Gammons unloads double barrels of venom and vitriol on Manny Ramirez in his latest ESPN column.
Gammons assassinates Manny's character, calling him out as a coward who shrinks from facing certain pitchers and uninterested in anything and anyone but himself and his bulging wallet. Even if some (or even all) of what he says about Ramirez and his teammates is true -- Ken Rosenthal reported that Manny had told several teammates he was considering sitting out the entire nine-game homestand (Yankees, Angels, A's) -- Gammons's indignant and angry tone is highly unusual for a supposedly detached journalist.
But Gammons has never thought highly of Ramirez -- calling him an "overpriced DH" with "the worst contract in baseball." Manny came to the Red Sox thanks to Dan Duquette, a man for whom Gammons has made no secret of his hatred and disgust. Back when Duquette was the Red Sox GM, no Gammons column was complete without a gratuitous swipe at Duquette.
The question is: How much fire is there amid all this smoke?
***
In my post from yesterday, I wondered if there were any extenuating circumstances around the 12 games that Ramirez has not started this season. Adam Hart at Boston Score did some fine research.
***
I was reminded that Manny met with his agent Scott Boras on Friday, July 18 when the Red Sox began their road trip against the Angels. Boras told the Globe's Nick Cafardo: "We'll have a discussion about Manny's future." Manny's unhappiness with Red Sox management was reported by Rob Bradford either later that day or the following day. (Also, Bob Lobel's comments about Manny tanking against Rivera were aired on the morning of the 18th.)
34 comments:
Here is Gammons's column (part of ESPN Insider):
Manny's all about the money
Monday, July 28, 2008
Everyone in the clubhouse knows the names. Joba Chamberlain (twice), Felix Hernandez (twice), Edinson Volquez, Justin Verlander -- pitchers that Manny Ramirez didn't feel quite right to face, be it a knee, a hamstring, his contract or the pitcher's velocity, and those he left for someone else in the Red Sox "family" to face.
Everyone knows what this latest soap opera is about. It's about Manny being only about Manny -- not the team that will have paid him $168 million when this season's over, not "teammates" he leaves to answer for him, not winning or any competitive motivation.
No. Manny being Manny means Manny wanting money. He doesn't want to wait for the Red Sox to exercise the right he gave them for the first $168M, the right to decide at the end of the season whether to pick up his option for 2009 at $20M. The Red Sox fulfilled their end of the contract; now he doesn't want to fulfill his obligation, the same way he watched his teammates fade in 2006.
He knows that this winter -- when he's 36, turning 37 next May -- he has a better chance of scoring the four-year, $100M deal he has told teammates he can get than he will after the 2010 season, when he'll be 38 turning 39. He doesn't want to have to sweat for two years at a measly $20M, and everyone knows that he couldn't care less how he gets that $100M, even if it means sitting out and leaving "family" fighting it out without him.
Manny is right. The Red Sox are tired of him. They are not going to pick up the option for 2009 and spend one more year as his prisoner. What he wants is to go to another team, on which he can put up big numbers for two months and either get that new contract, or go out on the market. Rationally, one would think he could do that in Boston -- first help the Red Sox into the postseason, then hit the market.
But that assumes rationality is in play.
Scott Boras intervened and helped the fine/anger-management solution after Ramirez shoved traveling secretary Jack McCormick. And Boras right now is trying to help Manny understand that it is in his best interest to, in Boras' words, "fulfill his current obligation," and put up the free-agent numbers here in Boston, where he has David Ortiz to take the heat Manny ignores, with five All-Stars in the lineup around him.
Oh, we all hear the analysis of how much the Red Sox need him. That is, if he doesn't bag it, which he was willing to do until John Henry and Tom Werner joined with Theo Epstein and Terry Francona on Friday, enraged at him for skipping Chamberlain, and forced him to take an MRI for the knee affliction known as Felix-Joba-itis.
But over the weekend, when they had one of those rare important series, with the Yankees charging on the outside, Red Sox management and players got a taste of what the series, the pennant and winning mean to him. Manny is right: Enough is enough. But management has to worry that if he gets booed he'll quit. Or that if Manny is criticized, he'll sit.
They are trying to get other teams interested. In the clubhouse, they talk about maybe getting Pat Burrell from the Phillies and reuniting Manny with Charlie Manuel. The Sox have let teams know they'll take care of Ramirez's remaining money if they'll provide young talent, which, considering what Manny can do for the Mets or Phillies or Dodgers, is a nice free-home demonstration; he won't have had time to "tire" of owners who pay him as much as the entire Florida Marlins team.
Ortiz, Mike Lowell, Alex Cora and other players are trying to help Manny focus and play in Boston; he works out with Lowell and Cora regularly, and some days he listens as they try to get him to connect the dots between the concepts of performance and pay. Maybe it'll work, and even if they do not win the World Series, they can rationalize that what they got for eight years and $168M was a pair of world championships and years of sellouts. They can rationalize that Manny essentially was The Fens' version of "Damn Yankees," and they'd probably say it was worth it to sell their souls to end that 86-year thing. But the interest rate on those payments of $20M and their souls is getting a tad steep.
Then the Red Sox move on and try to find another left-field bat. In the meantime, they may have to spend the rest of the year wondering if Manny Ramirez cares to play, whether the opposing pitcher is on his wish list.
Manny clearly has decided that he has already fulfilled his obligation to the first eight-year contract, and wants the next $100M right now. In the real world, this is a form of blackmail. In the clubhouse, where Francona and his teammates have allowed him to live by his own rules knowing that his production is Cooperstown material, many are exhausted by his disdain for the game, for winning and for any form of authority.
What Henry, Werner and Larry Lucchino should do is call a press conference and announce extensions for Francona and Epstein for all they have had to swallow because Manny Ramirez can hit. Then they can watch and see if a 36-year-old DH whose production in 2007 and 2008 has fallen below his 1998-2006 levels will go out and prove he's worth four years and $100M and ride off into the sunset snubbing his nose at the people who paid him $168M.
If he doesn't understand that these two months are vital to his next $100M, fine. If there isn't a reasonable trade to be made, fine.
After years of his public defenders rationalizing that the Red Sox can't win without him, if they can't win with him, so be it. At least the Red Sox can feel clean and sober.
A group of Red Sox watched the Yankees take early batting practice Friday, and they complimented the way Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez, Bobby Abreu and Johnny Damon show up every day. "Say what you want about A-Rod," said one, "but he plays every day and he plays his behind off."
Rodriguez opted out of his contract after an MVP season. What Ramirez is doing is trying to opt out in the middle of his contract during the season.
What the Red Sox hope is that he listens to Boras and his teammates and fulfills the obligation he signed. And then there's a train, either way, leaving every day. And buyer beware of a man who chooses to be judged by numbers and salary, with no regard for character or integrity.
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SoSHer 5belongstoGeorge:
"The last time Gammo was that mad it was when Canseco ratted out some 'roid users and basically told the world that Gammo, the rest of the media insiders, and every single baseball executive sat on the biggest baseball story in the past 20 years to protect their sources and their paychecks. ... Selective integrity is annoying."
More for the discussion:
SoSHer jodyreeddudley78:
"One thing that Gammons has made clear over the last twelve months is that the one thing that truly gets him angry is the when he observes what he deems as a slight against the "code" or unwritten rules of the sport. The two other examples that jump to mind are his take on the PED issue (he seemed to aim his ire at the loss of clubhouse confidentiality, the "code" if you will, rather than drugs as a threat to the integrity of the sport) and the anger he aimed at the A Rod opt out situation during WS game 4 (which apparently violated the unwritten rule of not upstaging the WS). I can't help but think that for Gammons Manny personifies a violation against the "code", whether it be real (doesn't always hustle, clubhouse incidents, opting out of games) or imaginary (head case, doesn't care, only in it for the money). It seems to me that is where the venom comes from."
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who knows what is really going on here, and it is close to impossible to decipher amidst all the people shouting their stories, but as a fan of the sox, here is the excerpt that I think is the biggest issue:
"management has to worry that if he gets booed he'll quit. Or that if Manny is criticized, he'll sit."
I'd like to think that after 8 years in Boston, it's pretty obvious that fans do like Manny and realize that he is one of the greatest hitters in the game.
I keep wanting to believe that the casual non-blog reading fan is smart enough to see through the crap that's smeared on most of the sports pages in New England, but clearly these hacks (sorry, "journalists") have been getting through to some people as shown by the booing of Manny last Saturday.
Seriously, wtf? How could you possibly boo him - first of all, after everything baseball-wise he's brought to the city, and secondly - the fact that the reasons why he's being booed are no more than petty myths perpetuated by the Boston sports media (which, has a grand history of exacerbating these sorts of things, especially with one Manny Ramirez)
This season started out so well with Manny, and I knew it was only a matter of time before things returned to their equilibrium. Leave it to CHB, Gammons, Lobel etc. to bring it back to equilibrium. I, for one, enjoyed the new Manny. I guess just because he didn't conform to the "code" this shit is happening.
This situation is going to have the exact same end as every other Manny situation in the past 8 years. He's going to speak out and put everything to rest, and the season is going to continue without issue.
...then they'll go on a huge tear, winning 18 of 20 to take a commanding lead in the AL East en route to World Series 2008!
1) I don't understand where all Gammons' anger is coming from. Manny has been a known quantity from the beginning, and no one has ever suggested he is bad guy. Some of his conduct would be sinister coming from someone else, but Gammons knows better.
2) I'm pretty sure that factually, most of this is correct. Gammons has to have good sources in and out of the clubhouse. I'm sure team mates get frustrated with Manny from time to time. Not a big deal. Gammons tone is unfair. It's personal.
3) Is Manny capable of being irrational, emotional, or clueless about how he's coming off to others? Sure. Everyone is. Professional athletes probably a bit more. Manny a bit more than the average professional athlete, I'd say.
4) The Sox played well without Ortiz in the line-up, and they would not be doomed if Manny "packed it in." It would be tougher to win without him than with him, which is why the brass won't trade him as long as he's playing. But the Sox got to the Series without clean-up hitter Jim Rice in '75 and without clean-up hitter Tony C. in '67---it's happened. The only person Manny would definitely hurt by tanking would be himself, and Boras. I presume Boras has enough self-interest to keep that from happening. For once, the Sox may benefit by having one of their players represented by him.
4) I agree with the 18 of 20 tear scenario. I think that is very likely how the East will be settled.
Tom Verducci thinks that trading Manny is a bad idea.
He also has some neat stats on Lester.
When Gammons says Manny has a "disdain ... for winning," it makes me wanna pull out the plug on his life support.
This news of Manny being booed on Saturday is news to me. I wasn't around...I was at the game! Where I heard the following response for Manny: "yeeeeaaaaahhhhhhhhh", with the howl of what sounded like one man booing beneath it--and you can never judge the home fans' reaction when the rival's in town, because OF COURSE Yankee fans are gonna boo. And that one boo I heard came from the region where a group of Yankee fans were sitting.
I agree completely with pretty much all of this:
SoSher fletcherpost (from here):
Throughout all this crap I've been thinking - I wish Manny had a good PR guy he trusted. I wish he knew how to play the PR game just a little bit. ...
He is in decline as a player. I don't know how slow that decline will be. Manny's playing days are closer to the end then the start. We all know this. Forgetting the riches he has earned...he will soon no longer be All Star Slugger Manny Ramirez. I reckon it's tough for any player to start facing up to that. But it's the nature of the beast. And the higher you are, the further you have to fall. ...
I dunno how Manny sees himself but in the business of baseball he is seen as a commodity, one that is losing value. All this other crap is not good for his value. ... beyond 2008 - what is best for Manny is no longer, it seems, best for the Red Sox. This is sad but I don't pick the team, I just root for the team. Baseball is a business. The media needs column inches and ergo the media is there to use and be used. I can't quanitify who is using who and by how much. I really can't.
I hope Manny sees out the season as a Red Sox. When he is gone, this will all blow over and we'll have other stuff to read about and watch on TV. As time passes I think his playing colleagues who have World Series Rings to polish will remember their playing days with Manny rather fondly. This is the last days of a marriage. A very public marriage. And the divorce will be just as public. I hope all sides can start showing some real class and common sense. There's a World Series to be won...or did i miss a meeting, is that not the main goal here?
Nothing Gammons has written or will ever write will be of as much value or give us as much pleasure as what Manny has done on the field in a Red Sox uniform. I love Manny. I think he's got some issues to deal with. But I love the player. I don't know the man. I hope for the sake of the team that the off the field stuff has minimum impact on their play. But they're pros, they ought to be able to deal with it."
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This news of Manny being booed on Saturday is news to me. I wasn't around...I was at the game!
Alas, I should have known better. Extra Bases mentioned that he received a mixed reception, implying that its because of this story. Here I am chiding people for believing this shit, while I just became a sucker myself. Although the cheering on Fox wasn't nearly as loud as it seems to be normally. Then again as Jere said - MFY was in town.
And if Fox operates their baseball games in any way like their "news" network...well it'd just be foolish to believe anything you see on it.
Gammons:
"Say what you want about A-Rod," said one [Red Sox player], "but he plays every day and he plays his behind off."
Games played in 2008:
Rodriguez - 85
Ramirez - 98
I keep wanting to believe that the casual non-blog reading fan is smart enough to see through the crap that's smeared on most of the sports pages in New England
This is a little difficult, especially for those of us who do not live in the New England area.
It was hard to not get extremely angry at the way Manny is being portrayed. They do make it sound convincing. Those of us outside of the Boston area, and for a time outside of the blog-osphere, tend to give credence to what the reporters are saying. After all, they are closer to the source than we are. (I am of course speaking only for myself.)
Either way, through the media or the blogs, it is all hard to decipher. I, like I am sure most of you, wish for this to come to an end soon. I am tired of all of the games, whether on ESPN or NESN being taken up by Manny talk. (Granted, I have watched the last two games on mute.) It's hard to not get suckered in.
I'm still not sure I'm not angry at him, I really think he should keep his mouth shut and play baseball, but then, don't we all?
cherry-picking, redsock. Slappy was (legitimately, demonstrably) injured.
Slappy was (legitimately, demonstrably) injured.
Hey, look everybody, it's Doctor B. Fool!
Apparently, he has treated both Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez this season and can therefore pass absolute judgment on which man was "legitimately" hurt.
I'm honoured to have a medical professional such as yourself taking time from what must no doubt be a busy schedule of seeing patients to stop by my humble blog.
It was hard to not get extremely angry at the way Manny is being portrayed. They do make it sound convincing. Those of us outside of the Boston area, and for a time outside of the blog-osphere, tend to give credence to what the reporters are saying. After all, they are closer to the source than we are. (I am of course speaking only for myself.)
I'm nowhere near New England either. While yes, they are closer to the source, I watch/follow the only thing that matters, the games.
When this season is all said and done, the only thing that can be proven in all of this is the Red Sox record, and how many games ahead they are come Sept 28.
It all comes down to the games, all this other stuff is fluff. (heh) So I say screw it - watch the games and enjoy the season. Everything else will work itself out.
"I really think he should keep his mouth shut and play baseball,"
The media ripped this guy constantly (as they did Pedro) because they did exactly what you want: they didn't talk.
And even now that he does answer their questions, they take what he says and twist it to read however they want it to. Screw the media. I think THEY should shut up.
Redsock: I agree that the post by fletcher is fair, persuasive and wise. Thanks for running it.
Ramirez will never make my list of favorite Red Sox players, but he's near the top of my list of the greatest Sox players I have had the privilege to watch, and he managed to play a major role in accomplishing what Foxx, Ted, Yaz and Fisk couldn't. Nobody can take that away from him, and I agree that he has earned the benefit of the doubt, by that accomplishment alone.
Back in Septeber 2006, I linked to and quoted from an article by Terry Nau of the Pawtucket Times. In it he cI should have posted it awhile ago, but forgot. Sorry.
Headlined "Baseball Writers Should Meet Manny Halfway", Nau discussed language and how sportswriters should learn some Spanish (or some of another language) in order to communicate with foreign-born players, just as those players have learned English.
He also discussed how Roberto Clemente was portrayed in the media. Worth a second look.
While it's certain that Manny has been portrayed unfairly in the media, I think it also may be possible that the front office, Peter Gammons, a large number of red sox fans, and just about everyone who hasn't been as gung-ho about Manny as possible is getting treated a little unfairly here.
Okay, most of the people here like Manny a whole lot. Fine. That's awesome, and it's what being a fan is about.
But this:
"Besides the questionable accuracy of what Gammons is saying, I can't help but feel Old Hickory is doing some of the FO's dirty work here."
is exactly the sort of conjecture that you are (rightfully) upset at the media for putting out there. It seems like you're suggesting the FO is intentionally sullying Manny's name through parrot-like reporters.
And stuff like this:
"coincidentally, their [the fans'] complaints about Player X sound very much like CHB's latest column"
makes it sound like there is no possible reason to be upset with Manny. But still, a)he pushed down an old man and got in a fight with a teammate, b)at least some of his teammates are upset enough to tell Ken Rosenthal that he plans to take a week and a half off and c) his public comments led the normally reserved John Henry to call himself "personally offended."
At the very least, you need to be open to the possibility that he may be somewhat culpable for the negative reaction by the media, and some of the anger towards him, though obviously not all of it, is warrented.
Also, I never got the chance to respond to something from about a week ago, and I figure I will clarify it, at least in brief. I don't really mind if Manny doesn't hustle down to first base. Few players do, and the difference between running at full effort to first and jogging is maybe one or two outs all season long.
However, his baserunning in terms of taking extra bases, (first-to-third or second-to-home on singles) is pretty poor. I don't have a prospectus subscription any more, but I remember his numbers being pretty abysmal. And it's not just because he's slow. Ortiz is slow, as well, and his baserunning numbers were very respectable. Manny is a poor baserunner.
He is also an abysmal fielder. Last year, Manny's revised zone rating (which is park adjusted) was .684. To compare, Alfonso Soriano was at .872, Josh Willingham was at .836, Carlos Lee was at .827, even Barry Bonds was at .831. Manny was orders of magnitude worse than even poor fielding LFers like Willingham, Lee, and Bonds. He takes poor routes to the ball, is slow, is not sure handed, and doesn't always seem to try his hardest to get to the ball. He does have an above average arm, but it doesn't come close to making up for his poor fielding. And some commenter said he should win a gold glove! Is it possible that maybe there's a little bit of overcompensation coing on here? That maybe you are rightfully upset at the unfair treatment he gets and aren't willing to look at some valid criticism?
It seems like you're suggesting the FO is intentionally sullying Manny's name through parrot-like reporters.
Yes, that's what I am suggesting.
At the very least, you need to be open to the possibility that he may be somewhat culpable for the negative reaction by the media, and some of the anger towards him, though obviously not all of it, is warrented.
I believe I am open to that. The very first words I posted about this mess were: "Something is going on with Manny Ramirez. But once we filter out media bias and sundry shitstirring and concentrate on confirmed facts, it's impossible -- right now -- to figure out what."
I admitted that "The reporters know much more about what is going on than I/we do" but added that "they have rarely put their cards on the table in a way that could erase my skepticism".
And today I asked: "How much fire is there amid all this smoke?"
I did not wade through my comments to the posts, but I think I have certainly conveyed that there could be -- and quite likely is -- some amount of fire.
I am pro-Manny but willingly admit that he could absolutely have done stuff that, in the level-headed eyes of the FO, warrants his termination from the Red Sox.
My dealings with Manny are almost always during a game -- and I am usually sitting hundrerds of miles away. I have no serious issues with him at those times. People who are around him 10+ hours a day might rightly have a different view.
But barring people speaking honestly and on the record, there is no real way to prove 98% of what has been reported.
We know Manny has knee problems, we know he skipped a couple of games, and we know he is playing now. Beyond that, I cannot trust either side.
Manny said this on Feb 21, 2008;
"It's up to them to say, `OK, we're going take (the option). It's not up to me to go into the office and demand a four-year deal, whatever," he said. "No, I'm going come here to play the game, finish my year. If they want me to come back, I'll come back."
"I want to wait and talk to them (about) what they want to do, after the season," Ramirez said. "I want to play the game, finish my year, and whatever happens, happens."
OK great ....what the fuck happened....he said what he said , he should stand by it....but instead he said this about 10 days ago:
“I want no more (expletive) where they tell you one thing and behind your back they do another thing,” Ramirez told The Herald. “I think I’ve earned that respect, for a team to sit down with me and tell me this is what we want, this is what we want to do.”
Whatever Gammons or CHB or Masserotti or Eades says I give two shits...But what comes out of Manny's mouth, Theo , Tito , Henry and whomever affilated with the Red Sox I have to take somewhat seriouslly.
"And even now that he does answer their questions, they take what he says and twist it to read however they want it to. Screw the media. I think THEY should shut up."
I, perhaps erronously, think that if he is quiet the media will be too.
Beyond that, I cannot trust either side.
As long as he plays, I'm fine. The problem becomes, for me, every time he misses a play, I'm going to wonder, did he do that on purpose.
Is there a way that this could all have been done without being played out in the media?
I didn't pay as close attention in '04, did the Nomar situation go down the same?
Manny said this on Feb 21, 2008;...OK great ....what the fuck happened....but instead he said this about 10 days ago:
That's what I was referring to in my first post. SOMETHING happened to get Manny riled up. We still have no idea what it was.
But what comes out of Manny's mouth, Theo , Tito , Henry and whomever affilated with the Red Sox I have to take somewhat seriouslly.
For the record, then, re the Fruitbat PH:
John Henry: "It's ridiculous and incendiary for anyone to suggest that Manny would purposefully make an out in any game. Ridiculous."
Larry Lucchino: "I'm not going to dignify that with a response. This is Boston and this is the big leagues. A lot of things get created out of whole cloth, and we've got to appreciate that things like this happen from time to time."
Forgot the link!
CHB, 7/19
I, perhaps erronously, think that if he is quiet the media will be too.
Manny did not talk to the media for several consecutive seasons. It did not matter. The slander and selective memories/reporting went on.
Some writers seemed so annoyed at Manny's refusal to talk to them that they (knowing Manny would not challenge them) felt free to whip up sentiment against him.
Now that he has spoken, they say he should shut up. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Manny cannot win.
Manny cannot win.
I agree.
Why does Papi not garner attention in such a way?
"Why does Papi not garner attention in such a way?"
Oh, come ON! You're kidding, right?
I agree that Manny gets criticized for things that slide right under the radar for other players, but my god, don't act as if this is all random drama! Ortiz does his job, happily, professionally traditionally and well. He is Brooks Robinson, Dwight Evans, Al Kaline. Now, if he carried a fish up to the plate instead of a bat, if he gave interviews saying that he hoped to play for the Yankees, if he batted out of order or ran the bases the wrong way after a home-run, or did other out-of-the-box things season after season after season, then he would polarize the press and fans, he would be the object of unfair attacks (and justified criticism), and as his abilities faded and the balance between his non-conformity and his performance became harder to maintain, then debates would start over whether he was worth the trouble. But Papi (and Lowell, and Tek, and others) is NOT Manny. Babe Ruth was Manny. Ted Williams was Manny. Rogers Hornsby and Barry Bonds and Bill Lee and Curt Schilling and Reggie Jackson were Manny. They, like him, brought both attention and criticism (fair and unfair) on themselves by not being like everybody else, and sometimes making it clear that they knew they were special, and expected to be treated that way.
Trying to keep Manny from being run out of town by the press is one thing. Pretending that he's just a bystander and that this could happen to anybody is absurd.
Pretending that he's just a bystander and that this could happen to anybody is absurd.
I was in no way trying to suggest such a thing.
Ok...then you know the answer to your question.
This stuff doesn't happen to Ortiz because he doesn't behave like Manny, never has and almost certainly never will.
I have no problems with Manny, personally, either. I work at the park, and have interacted with him a couple of times, and he's always been very nice. He seems like a warm person, at least when I've seen him interact with others.
But on the whole, I think it might be best if his time with the Sox comes to an end.
But on the whole, I think it might be best if his time with the Sox comes to an end.
I fail to see the logic in this.
Are people really this willing to see a major wheel removed from the 2008 World Series steamroller just because of the media's exaggeration of this man?
Manny did great things in Boston. There is no arguing that fact. I'm sure Gammons will agree, but what he did in the name of money will tarnish his memory. Boras orchestrated this departcher. He needed to get Manny out of the last two years to make any money off him. It would be harder to command a huge contract two years from now as it would be next season.I'm sure Gammons knew what was going on. After all Gammons is pretty well conected in the baseball scene. Gammons is not paid to be unbiased. Also Gammons is paid to give an opinion. Everyone knows he is a Boston homer, so to act like he should be unbiased is kind of foolish. I think Gammons as a fan was angry with what he was hearing and I also think as more of the story comes out most people will be just as angry. The bottom line. Manny was gone after the end of this season no matter what. The question is would he have helped the team until then or hurt the team. I think the things he said and how they escalated answers that question very well. Manny is gone and it's time to move on.
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